Maybe... Especially if you do not read it in the orinal language (Hebrew), and especially if you read it with a set of assumptions that was not necessarily there. Since I cannot teach you Hebrew in one day, and I cannot anticipate every misunderstanding even in the first few chapters... I would encourage you to bring some specific examples. You would be surprized at my answers. (Ask EE, he was surprized, I think). Incidentally, since I, originally, come from the background where I read the texts in translation (Russian/English) and the modern ("Brave New World," I call it)set of assumptions about the ancient world -- I will probably be able to anticipate a few contraversial "massogynistic-sounding" areas. But, i cannot discuss them all right here, so pick your favorite ones, pick them all, you pick them.
Interesting.... Well, I remember that back last year you and some one else had an altercation here on this thread about a certain passage of the Bible. I remember reading and getting disappointed, as *you* seemed to *ASSUME* that somehow the commandment to leave "Medianite women who had not known a man," meant to assume sexual possession of them. Well, SJ, I cannot blame you, as this is, indeed, what it sounds like.... THis is how I read it when I read it originally... But later, i was explained that the non virgin Medianite women were the same women that male medianites sent to seduce the Israelite men. The idea was that they knew that it is not possible for them to defeat Jewish tribes on the battle field as long as they maintained their purity. (Incidentally, the plot worked, and until Pinchas killed Zimri, while he was copulating with Medianite princess, and untill the other straying Israelite men were appropriately punished, Jews had no luck on the battle field). Actually, it specifically says there "for G-d of Israel hates promiscuity." In addition, the very reason why Israelites were commanded to deal so harshly with the Medianites was because the Medianites were SO determined in their goal to defeat them by any means possible, that they were EVEN willing to use one of their Princesses for that matter! (Until then the idea was that they would pass by their areas without fighting with them at all.
The virgin Medianite women were NOT intended for sex at all. In general, this was a slave society, so there was plenty of slave population there. BTW, while the permission to keep slaves while *does* seem abusive for me, does make sence in the context of the times. (Constant wars, enslaving was the best of the alternatives. Incidentally, by the Talmudic law, which, obviously is the oldest clearly recorded interpretation of the Bible, the slaves, including non-Jewish slaves had to be treated better than the masters. Specifically, I remember reading in the Tractate of Sukka was that if the master had only one bed, the slave could sleep in the bed, while the master had to take the straw. It is there, I saw it with my own eyes. I am not kidding you. Pretty liberal for an ancient world, no?)
Look, I do not care about when first female rabbis were ordained. The whole "Smicha" (i.e. "rabbinical degree") today should not be seen as any kind of "ordination." "Ordination" is a misnomer. "Smicha" is a misnomer. It is not the same "smicha" which the rabbis of the Sanhedrin used to get. That Smicha is gone, and will not be revived probably until the Messianic Times... "Smicha" of today, in the Orthodox world, means that you have certain educational background. Anyone can have that background. Admittedly, today, it is a lot easier for a man to attain that level of education, and this difficulty is a form of medieval attavism, if you ask me. But most people do not believe in attaining degrees while they learn Torah.... Torah should be learned for its own sake. The fact that ANYONE recieves any dergree for obtaining Torah is wrong if you ask me. I learn plenty. I will probably never go for a degree of a "rabba" -- a female version of a rabbinical degree, occasionally given in Israel. I do not think the "degree" is what one should be so focused on. It is enough for me, that in a few (very narrow) areas of Judaism I know way more than an average rabbi.
And, just as a clarification: there is no such thing as "Orthodox temple." Temple is where sacrificial service takes place -- by definition. Reform establishment, for some reason, likes to call their congregation a "temple." Don't ask me.... For the Orthodox, it just sounds funny. There is only one spot where the Temple can stand. Many prerequisite events should take place before this Temple can be rebuild again -- such as finding a completely red cow.... I am not kidding you. A red heifer, with no hairs of other colors is one of the prerecquisites. People should be spiritually ready to have a Temple. Trust me, we are not. I am not for sure -- still working on it. At any rate, by the time there will be the FIST AND ONLY ORTHODOX TEMPLE TO BE BUILT, hopefully other miracles will happen, including Muslims suddenly deciding that they no longer believe in their religion anymore, or something else, and just give us the space. If we deserve it, there will be no need for violence, this is what I am saying).
Well, honestly, i would have no problem if Muslims would analize their religion and "toss out" things that are not necessarily nice to women. If they can. Btw, given my experience with misinterpretation of Judaism, I was first very resentful in believing certain truths about statements made in the hadiths... I specifically went ahead, and cross referenced the compilations of hadiths that we used for my advanced Islam classes (assigned by Muslim professors, to mostly Muslim students), and yes, some of those things did confirm as true. But I also learned quite a few very beautiful and openminded hadiths in the process. So, there is a hope. :)
Incidentally, Buddhism CLEARLY seems to disenfranchise female nuns... In fact, as far as I can remember, when the women approached the leadership(was it Buddha himslef???) regarding creating female monasteries -- the leadership clearly stated that the lowest male monk will be higher than the highest female nun. That is what I remember learning. Granted, there can be many reasons for it, and it could mean many different thigs I cannot fathom of right now. You can do your own search, and if you do not find anything, let me know, I will try to go back and search myself. Deal?
Well, not for me. It is really in the eye of the beholder. I like all religion. It brings surprises and moral challenges... but so does everything in life.
Posted 7/3/2012 7:03 pm
ahh, SJ, another comment about Buddhism. There one were two Buddhist sages walking (one male and one female), and the female was originally walking behind him... Then they decided that they should walk side by side...
So, most people in my class originally assumed that this meant as a statement that men and women are equal. But the explanation given later, was that by the ancient customs, a woman walking behind a man would look as if she is his wife.... they did not want to appear married.... You figure..
Posted 7/3/2012 7:25 pm
Lara wanted this incident to fade away, with Smith being the latest victim, and bringing rape in Egypt back to the forefront and knowing her name will forever be associated with EGYPT/RAPE and all future rapes in Egypt. Everytime this happens, all of the could conditions could happen to Lara
It also could be emancipating for Lara knowing that others are attacked and not only she. I know she would not want that to be, she is a moral person that hates blaming others and wishing them misfortune. But these assaults show clearly that this was not some isolated incident, some freak accident. She is not alone. She is among others. Maybe the others did not suffer that horrible but they were close to Laras ordeal.
So - it could be the other way around. It could also strengthen her somehow, knowing she is not the only one, knowing this problem in Egypt is indeed a HUGE PROBLEM and she brought it to attention with her ordeal, but she was not alone in doing this. There were others. There are others. There will be probably others (hope not!)
No, she did not support them - it is unfair to toss the same Egyptians who would have saved her (would they have known about her ordeal) into the same basket as her attackers. She did support the good guys and there are still good guys in Egypt/Kairo.
But there are also bad guys. That was shown to us very convincingly the past 12 months...
Look at this: That...is VERY CLOSELY resembling Lara Logan's ordeal!
The protest had been organised after a week of reported incidents against women by the burger joint, including the 2 June mobbing of one its coordinators Nihal Saad Zaghloul, American University in Cairo (AUC) masters student Rosa Navarro and European filmmaker who gave a testimony to the NGO Nazra under the pseudonym C.
These mob assaults happen in every single mass gathering on the square, Zaghloul explains, Natasha wrote almost exactly the same thing that happened to us.
About 200 men were involved in our attack, Navarro explains, relating what happened to them on 2 June. I was the first to be grabbed, at least 30 or 40 guys tried to strip me of my clothes. Navarro was thrown aggressively against the wall of Hardees. The incident lasted for 45 minutes.
Zaghloul, meanwhile had been dragged off into another group. The three women were separated.
There were hands everywhere, you couldnt even count them. It seemed like the central circle of ten men would change as if they were taking turns, Zaghloul described.
Their friend filmmaker C, who like Smith left Egypt immediately after the incident and is seeking psychiatric help for severe trauma, was subjected to particularly extreme violence.
Reminiscent of what Smith wrote in her blog post, Zaghloul described how the mob ripped the filmmaker's clothes off, so that afterwards "she had hand shaped bruises all over her body."
They raped her with their fingers, she was being tossed around like a ragdoll, said Navarro. Then around 100 men dragged her into an alley way behind Hardees, where we couldnt see or reach her.
According to filmmaker Cs testimony, she eventually escaped, covered in dirt and wrapped in a large Egyptian flag, and was reunited with her friends in a nearby flat. The women were trapped in the building for an hour as the crowd of men waited outside.
They seem to be orchestrated, by anyone who benefits from having Tahrir not secured or from having people leave protests. It could be state police, government, you pick, said Zaghloul. If you beat up a woman, people leave pretty quickly.
Architect and activist Pakiham Badra, who was in the attacked 8 June women's march, agrees.
Badra reported seeing unidentified men, claiming to be military and air force students, insist on breaking the male cordon protecting the women, claiming they wanted to join the protest in order to join the protest.
She noticed that the numerous fights that broke out sparking the thug-attack, where women were surrounded, beaten and stripped, originated from the points at which these men had entered the march.
It felt like we were infiltrated, at every point where they broke the male chain, a girl was snatched.
Posted 7/4/2012 4:44 pm
Where are the real eyewitnesses of the Lara Logan sexual assault? It has been over a year, some of them by now should have gotten the courage to step forward, just as it took 100-200 cowardly men to rape her. Are all Egyptians people cowards? None have step forward as a witness to any of these assaults/rapes.
Posted 7/4/2012 9:12 pm
These Egyptian mobs also use the who's helping and who's raping method, when the whole mob is there for groping and assaulting these defenseless women. These roaming dogs can't wait to assault/rape all women who venture into the square.
These women weren't in a stable position as long as Lara, when Lara surrender with their hands already inside her, she allowed them to rape her in a more organize fashion with their hands front and back, each man getting a sufficient amount of time, where with these women and mob were nonstop movement with everyman for themself.